Hyprland is an open source Wayland compositor based on wlroots, a project I started back in 2017 to make it easier to build good Wayland compositors. It’s a project which is loved by its users for its emphasis on customization and “eye candy” – beautiful graphics and animations, each configuration tailored to the unique look and feel imagined by the user who creates it. It’s a very exciting project!

Unfortunately, the effect is spoilt by an incredibly toxic and hateful community. I cannot recommend Hyprland to anyone who is not prepared to steer well clear of its community spaces. Imagine a high school boys’ locker room come to life on Discord and GitHub and you’ll get an idea of what it’s like.

I empathise with Vaxry. I remember being young, smart, productive… and mean. I did some cool stuff, but I deeply regret the way I treated people. It wasn’t really my fault – I was a product of my environment – but it was my responsibility. Today, I’m proud to have built many welcoming communities, where people are rewarded for their involvement, rather than coming away from their experience hurt. What motivates us to build and give away free software if not bringing joy to ourselves and others? Can we be proud of a community which brings more suffering into the world?

Update: Response from Vaxry, Hyprland Developer

Everything about this story to the comments in here are pathetic.

The internet isn’t real.

Who gives a fucking shit lol. Guy makes software I like, I use it. I don’t care if he has slaves on treadmill generating his electricity.

Offensive, but funny

Who cares about the community? If it’s useful and works I will use it. It’s not like I’m paying for it. If the community is toxic people will not contribute to the project. If they don’t need contributors they can do whatever they like.

If you use this software, You will likely come across the community, in at least a passive way. as this is a piece of software with extensive manual configuration. Most people will be reading blogs and forums to figure out their configuration.

Rare to see people with common sense these days.

Because it’s important to call people out for their bullshit and not tacitly approve of it by keeping quiet?

IMHO calling people out for everything easily turns into vicious witch haunts and doesn’t really change anything. They weren’t nice to you? Don’t use their software. The whole world really doesn’t need to know about each alleged asshole. Not shouting at every person I disagree with is not approving of anything.

I generally agree that it’s not necessary to bring unrelated problems into a space.

But this post reads like “this software is good but the community is not welcoming, I don’t recommend getting into either”. I think that’s valid.

I don’t think it’s valid. Using some software does not actually mean I support or agree with its creators. It’s FOSS, the devs invest their time and give it out for free. By using this software I don’t make it easier for them to spread their word. There’s a lot of cases where I would say it’s valid like. let’s say Elon Musk is giving me a free Tesla. He lost money on it but me driving around in his car is still a form of promotion so I’m helping him sell his cars, make money and promote his opinions so I would not take it. But here using this software is totally personal matter. By installing it I don’t promote it or provide founds to the authors. If they are assholes every person offended by them is free to decide no to use it. Posting all over the internet that they were not nice to you is just petty. All it does is create silly shitstorms and angry posts.

You’re still giving them a platform by installing their code though?

If you use software coming from someone you inherently disagree with, especially a desktop environment/compositor, you depend on that person for your computer’s day-to-day functionality. Isn’t one of the key points of the FOSS community that we disagree with large controlling companies like Google and Microsoft? That, even when they make FOSS contributions, it should be taken with a huge grain of salt?

Imo, this is the exact same thing. Even if it’s good software, not wanting to rely on code from someone you don’t agree with or trust (even if those concerns are unrelated to the given codebase) is completely reasonable and valid

‘Giving them platform’? What is that supposed to mean? It’s not like they gaining anything from my CPU cycles. No one knows what software I’m running on my computer.

I’m not depending on any software as long as there are alternatives. And no, the point is not to disagree with large companies. Big corporations make contributions to Linux kernel all the time. As long as it’s truly FOSS and they don’t control it it’s not an issue. If the company controls it it’s not really FOSS (like Chrome or Android).

Also, not using their code is not the same as telling everyone else they should not use it. You can use whatever you like. Complaining online that some community was not nice to you is IMHO silly.

Depending on something isn’t necessarily tied to how many alternatives there are.

For example: I use a heavily configured qtile setup on my desktop. I’m depending on that setup working every time I turn my computer on. Sure, I could switch to i3 or sway or Hyprland, but that would take a considerable amount of time and effort. In this case, I’m depending on qtile working for me, so I can get work done instead of messing with a bunch of config files. The only time this wouldn’t happen is when one solution can be a completely (or almost completely) drop-in replacement for the other, e.g. how sway claims to be with i3.

This is especially true with tiling window managers, where people spend many hours configuring setups to behave how they want. Moving to a different alternative isn’t exactly simple.

To your point about FOSS: chrome and android may not be FOSS, but as much as I dislike it AOSP and Chromium definitely are, even if Google controls the repos for both. Your definition is a slippery slope because by that definition software like Ubuntu, Manjaro, etc. also aren’t FOSS because the repos are controlled by a single company.

To your last point: telling someone else they shouldn’t use a piece of code for the same reason you don’t is also perfectly valid. It’s not like it’s an order, they don’t have to follow it. People can choose to agree or disagree with you if they want. Ultimately, the decision to install software in Linux lies with the user, and the most any online opinion can do is give a persuading or dissuading argument. Just like I could say, “don’t use this software, it’s built on some old deprecated library that will probably break in a month”, I could also say “don’t use this software, the main dev is a bad person because xyz…” and it would still be up to the user to make a decision. If you don’t mind disagreeing with the author of software you use, that’s fine, but not everyone is like that, and that’s also fine.

@GenBlob@lemm.ee
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It sucks that cool projects like hyprland are usually riddled with toxic weirdos that ruin it. It also sucks that there’s not much to choose in the wayland space that’s usable and actively developed but I refuse to use hyprland after seeing this.

@sky@codesink.io
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[A trans person] joined the Discord server and made a big deal out of their pronouns […] because they put their pronouns in their nickname and made a big deal out of them because people were referring to them as “he” [misgendering them], which, on the Internet, let’s be real, is the default.

Damn I didn’t know women didn’t exist on the internet! Also “making a big deal out of ones pronouns” is almost never the case, it’s always just a normal request for the respect of addressing someone properly.

ffhein
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Unclear if you’re referring to the meme or if serious, so I’m gonna leave this here just in case: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/there-are-no-girls-on-the-internet

@sky@codesink.io
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given I am a woman who is currently on the internet, I am aware there are women on the internet.

thanks for explaining that for me 😉

YWNBAW

just another dev
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LIES!

removed by mod

KSP Atlas
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Does drew not know about the existence of singular they? I use that unless i know their gender properly

These are not Drew’s words, he is quoting something said by the project dev. The context that the previous commenter ommitted is:

Following my email conversation with Vaxry, he appeared on a podcast to discuss toxicity in the Hyprland community. This quote from the interview clearly illustrates the attitude of the leadership:

[A trans person] joined the Discord server and made a big deal out of their pronouns […] because they put their pronouns in their nickname and made a big deal out of them because people were referring to them as “he” [misgendering them], which, on the Internet, let’s be real, is the default. And so, one of the moderators changed the pronouns in their nickname to “who/cares”. […] Let’s be real, this isn’t like, calling someone the N-word or something.

I use y’all also, it’s can be singular or plural in practice

Well that’s pretty bad. I just switched to hyprland and like it, but I don’t want to give those people a bigger platform than what they already have… Ah shit I’ll have to think about that. Why can’t we have nice things that aren’t made by complete assholes.

As someone on HackerNews said:

I’ve never felt the need for any “community” for my window manager of choice

@phario@lemmy.ca
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Hmmm. If abuse happens, is the right idea to say that “I don’t need this community”?

I’m not sure how that HackerNews comment helps in the slightest. If my university has an obscure basket weaving community and people are getting abused in that community, should I just say “Eh we don’t actually need a basket weaving community”.

It’s also amusing to me that a commenter on a relatively obscure and niche website is complaining that that don’t need (or care about abuse that transpired on) a niche community from another website. And then this comment is echoed in yet another niche community.

RaivoKulli
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“You shouldn’t use this window manager because their community is toxic”

“I’m not going to interact with the community”

Seems fair enough

For real. Not everything needs to be a fucking subculture. Next they’ll be saying, “The WinRAR community is toxic”. Like no, your discord server is poorly moderated. The problem starts and ends there.

I do not know about that, chief. WinRAR people are the most wholesome people.

I just wanted to point out that it’s ridiculous to form some kind religion¹ around a wayland compositor.

Also, I don’t want anybody to think I’m supporting what’s happening there. I just don’t really care about Hyprland’s community because I’m not part of it.

¹Hyprland’s discord server is named “Church of Hyprland”

aard
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This is a pretty old joke. See “Church of Emacs”.

Kata1yst
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Another toxic community founded and maintained by the socially inept. Yep, checks out.

Yeah.

At maximum a bug/issue tracker is needed.

That’s great for you but that might not be true for someone you recommend it to, or decides to give it a try after you mention you use it. Someone might go looking for help or tips there.

File a bug, read FAQ, StackOverflow? If you are messing around with window managers on Linux, a certain level of competency is expected. However, I’m more concerned about the weirdos hanging around in a discord chat of said window manager, harassing strangers. Such a strange hobby.

Hmm, I feel like there’s some nuances around Hyprland (and it’s kind of window managers) that makes having a place for discussion valuable.

  • Plugin development discussions
  • Configuration recipes and troubleshooting (Configs for tiling wm’s often are like 500-line software projects)
  • …and sometimes its just fun to chat with like-minded people who share a similar philosophy on the tools they use on their computers

I’m not a hyprland user, but I find it valuable to lurk around SwayWM communities on Discord and Reddit.

I can personally vouch for how toxic the Discord server and its moderators/admins are. Went there for support (Hyprland was crashing on startup on AMD, sway worked fine), and was told something along the lines of “if you can’t figure this out you’re stupid and you should stop using Linux”. Figured out the issue on my own and stopped using and recommending Hyprland after that.

I wonder if this comes from the only help / discussion being on Discord which has an infamously horrible search feature.

A forum could even be indexed by search engines so no need for:

  1. A discord account
  2. Annoying the developers with frequently asked questions
@d6GeZtyi@lemmy.world
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I empathize a lot with this comment.

In tech (though I would guess as in many other technical domains), many people do seem to easily bully people for not knowing things or making mistakes. I’m guessing it’s just people having high insecurities themselves, it’s even more of an ego thing when considering that computer things are considered as a “nerd” pastime (a group considering itself “smart”). Not knowing things - even things that we would have thought are really simple - should be OK on an help channel as long as you’re not abusing the helpers’ patience.

I’ve been a witness of these situation countless times, the sane way of handling this for me have been to just consider that these are mostly people externalizing their poor self esteem and to just continue conversation (at worst with the other people) as normal.

@piexil@lemmy.world
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Vaxry’s themselves does this all the time. He’s an asshole. Like I get OSS developers don’t owe anyone anything, but some people think that means they can be an asshole to their users for no reason too.

Just look at this for example. Someone asked a clarifying question and Vaxry basically said “stop making noise”. Ironically producing more noise instead of just, idk, answering them? https://github.com/hyprwm/Hyprland/issues/1817

deleted by creator

Kilgore Trout
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Take every opinion from Drew DeVault with a grain of salt.

I struggle to be interested in any bling project written by C++ “coders” since they were 9 who don’t even know how copyright works so use a pseudonym there instead - they’re almost always inexperienced children. And children are almost always sociopaths.

Is Hyprland violating someone’s copyright?

the moderators of the Discord server engaged in a harassment campaign against a transgender user, including using their moderator privileges to edit the pronouns in their username from “they/she” to “who/cares”

Well, apparently those moderators care. Why else edit it?

They like to make a show like everyone on Earth is just like they are so how dare we exist differently but it’s clearly just them being hateful. Idunno how bigots manage to still think they’re clever and totally not insecure whilst making self-contradictory statements and raging over nonsense and trivia for hours at a time, often in spaces where they’re not even welcome.

@xavier666@lemm.ee
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Your first mistake was joining a Discord group for a software product. Github pages / bug-tracker or GTFO.

@blindbunny@lemmy.ml
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Fucking right? Let alone a open source project.

RaivoKulli
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It wasn’t really my fault – I was a product of my environment

Riiight.

The very next words are “but it was my responsibility”… what exactly is bad about that statement if you don’t intentionally cherry pick a bad quote?

RaivoKulli
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It was his fault too imo

Yeah, I’m not too fond of that statement. I respect ddevault, particularly since I have seen his serious growth into a mature, empathetic person. So ICM surprised that this made it into the post.

@TeryVeneno@lemmy.ml
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You kinda left out the next line in which he says

But it was my responsibility

That’s the whole statement and tbh I agree. It’s never anyone’s fault for being a bad person, but it is 100% their responsibility to right their wrongs.

RaivoKulli
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I didn’t kinda leave it out, I just left it out

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